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Ger34
Junior Member



Canada
44 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2015 :  11:10:27  Show Profile Send Ger34 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks guys.... I am getting comparable results with both 45gr IMR 3031 (1.624 / 4 shot group) and 54gr H4350 (1.634 / 4 shot group respectively) and I was trying to tighten those up to 1MOA .... then I found the 30yr old Original box with the target Weatherby supplies with their rifles.... and their guarantee of

"All Weatherby Vanguard Synthetic rifles come guaranteed to deliver 1.5" or smaller three-shot groups at 100 yards from a cold barrel with premium, factory loaded ammunition. It is the only economy rifle that comes with a written accuracy guarantee."

(above quote copied from http://www.chuckhawks.com/weatherby_vanguard_synthetic.htm )


So... I guess my rifle is shooting as good as it gets.... unless I decide I want to make it more accurate.... then it's a challenge
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WonderMan4
Advanced Member

USA
2847 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2015 :  13:30:40  Show Profile Send WonderMan4 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your rifle will do better than the 1.5" groups.

you need to rethink your powder choice. Look at powders in the RL17 and IMR4350 burn rate range.

I think someone mentioned that IMR 3031 is excellent in 30-30 Win, and it is, but something slower is warranted in the '06 with 165 gr bullets.

I have a Vanguard and it easily shoots consistently under 1" with 5 shots. You might even have to try a different bullet to get your wanted accuracy.

I don't know what sort of stock you have on it, but it and the bedding might need looked at as well for the reasons previously mentioned.

Edited by - WonderMan4 on Oct 12 2015 13:31:47
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Ger34
Junior Member



Canada
44 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2015 :  14:41:20  Show Profile Send Ger34 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tried H4350... not IMR 4350.. the 2 are like 3 or 4 spaces apart on the burn rate chart so "should" be close to the same....groups were lousy from starting load through to max load in the 2 manuals I have... IMR 3031 grouped much better...
I'm using the 165gr Sierra Game King spbt btw

It's a bit close to deer season now for me to experiment... going with the IMR3031 till the season is over... start new load workup afterwards... and maybe free float the barrel...it currently is a front pressure point

quote:
Originally posted by WonderMan4

Your rifle will do better than the 1.5" groups.

you need to rethink your powder choice. Look at powders in the RL17 and IMR4350 burn rate range.

I think someone mentioned that IMR 3031 is excellent in 30-30 Win, and it is, but something slower is warranted in the '06 with 165 gr bullets.

I have a Vanguard and it easily shoots consistently under 1" with 5 shots. You might even have to try a different bullet to get your wanted accuracy.

I don't know what sort of stock you have on it, but it and the bedding might need looked at as well for the reasons previously mentioned.

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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9124 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2015 :  16:56:26  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Before trying any more different powders than you already have on hand I would seriously evaluate your rifle; trigger pull, bedding, action screws, scope bases, mounts, scope, bench shooting style, OAL cartridge length, bullet brand, type, weight, etc...

I would definately free float the barrel first and then verify trigger pull weight, creep and over-travel. Then hit the range again. The highest velocity load I ever worked up in 30-06 with 168HPBT was with 61 gr of Data 85 at 2896 fps in a post 64, 24" Win. Model 70 which was quite accurate in that rifle. This was a max load in that rifle. Most other max loads I ever worked up with a 22-24" barrel would never go over 2780 fps.
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Ger34
Junior Member



Canada
44 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2015 :  19:27:24  Show Profile Send Ger34 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh this is embarrassing....

So I borrowed the bosses chrony today to get speeds for my ballistics calculator so I have ballistics for hunting...
SINCE I tend to second guess myself alot... I loaded up 5 @ 54gr H4350 ( since it SEEMS to be the "goto" powder for '06) and I already had 50 @ 45gr IMR 3031... just to compare groups and speeds...btw... bullets are all 165gr Sierra Game King SPBT with a BC of .404

H4350 ave speed was 2607 (speeds varied by 90fps between slowest and fastest... and I know I trickle charge every round.. so chrony might be off )

IMR 3031 ave speed was 2501...speeds varied by 35fps between slowest and fastest

So heres the groups....

H4350



IMR3031



So maybe H4350 just works better in the fall lol... temp was about 10C cooler (about 12F)

I am sooooo confused right now.... however... rather than unloading 45 shells and reloading them with H4350 now with less than a month to deer season.. I might just stick with the IMR 3031 load and start over after the season is over

Soo guick question.... to measure the group... do you "throw away" the 1 flyer and measure the best 4? or measure the entire group?

Edited by - Ger34 on Oct 12 2015 19:28:50
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WonderMan4
Advanced Member

USA
2847 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2015 :  21:47:10  Show Profile Send WonderMan4 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Group measuring is entirely up to you. If you think the flier was the shooter, then don't measure the flier.

Forgot to mention that you start load with the IMR4350 is low. Chances are that when you kick it up some, say close to 59 grains or so, the ES will come down to respectable numbers and you will be getting more decent velocities that the caliber is capable of doing.

Just don't jump right up there and go in 0.5 to 1.0 grain increases up to around 57, then slow down and work with maybe 0.3 grain increases. Study the groups and POI as you go and learn to read pressure signs.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/04/evaluating-pressure-signs-in-reloaded-cartridge-brass/

http://massreloading.com/reading_pressure_signs.html


Edited by - WonderMan4 on Oct 12 2015 21:56:51
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9124 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2015 :  22:27:37  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shoot what you have already loaded. They will work just fine. Next year you can work on optimizing a load that will be faster and accurate.
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KB0VSO
Average Member

USA
125 Posts

Posted - Dec 03 2015 :  17:19:29  Show Profile Send KB0VSO a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Optometrist helped me. I had to go see him. I ran out of friends to
stand next to the target and ring a bell so I knew which way to shoot.

Larry
Northern Minnesota USA

Larry
Way Up North in Minnesota, USA
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9124 Posts

Posted - Dec 03 2015 :  19:37:15  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Larry, I understand there are lots of Muslims in Minnesota and Michigan that you can befriend. Just buy a ewe and loan it to them. They can pay you back for the ewe services by standing next to your target. Tell them to yell Allah Akbar...when you are ready to shoot.
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KB0VSO
Average Member

USA
125 Posts

Posted - Dec 12 2015 :  11:31:27  Show Profile Send KB0VSO a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What is the best powder
Rifle Cartridge Powder / Load Density
Modern smokeless powder once ignited produce expanding gases that push the bullet down the rifles bore giving us a certain amount of velocity to our bullet.
Modern smokeless rifle powders have varying burn rates and come in two types, single base nitrocellulous and double base nitrocellulous with the addition of nitroglycerine.
Modern smokeless rifle powders have various shapes and they are, extruded or tubular, ball or spherical, round flat flake and diamond flat flake.
Rifle Cartridge Powder Reloading:
There are many rifle cartridge powders to choose from for the avid reloader today each of which vary in their burn rate. With all the powders that are available how does anyone know which powder to select for their particular rifle cartridge reloading.
Load Density:
Load density is one factor to consider in selecting powder for a particular rifle cartridge with 86% density just about ideal in most cases. Load density is the ratio between case capacity and actual powder charge. Most factory ammunition is loaded with a density of 80% - 90% of the cartridge case capacity.
1. You should do not to exceed 90% load density.
A. Primers need room to flame through the powder charge which gives uniform velocity and pressure.
B. Cases that are full or compressed charges of powder will accelerate barrel wear in the rifle barrels throat area and then over time will destroy the accuracy of the rifle.
2. You should never drop below 80% load density.
A known condition named detonation (excess pressure spike) can occur with cases that are not significantly filled with powder. Some years ago the U.S. Ordnance and DuPont ballistics laboratories were able to duplicate the strange phenomenon called detonation and they had determined that excess air space in the cartridge case to be the trigger for detonation.
How to figure load density:
Powder charge weight divided by case capacity equals load density. Example: Powder charge 40 grains (divided by) Case capacity 50 grains = .8 or 80% load density.
Case Capacity:
Case capacity is the amount of volume inside a cartridge case that is available for the rifle powder or propellant to fill.
How To Measure Case Capacity:
Measuring case capacity is actually quite simple. Once you have established your bullet seating depth in the bullet section of this guide.
1. Weigh one case with bullet seated to proper depth without powder or primer.
2. Now fill the case with water through the primer hole using a hyperdermic needle and weigh again.
3. Now subtract dry weight from the water weight and this will give you your case capacity.
Example:
470 grains = water weight with bullet.
- 420 grains = empty weight with bullet.
50 grain = case capacity.
Once you have your case capacity using your reloading manual select powders that fall into your load density range.
In the above example of a 50 grain capacity your range would be.
1. 50 grain capacity x 80% load density = 40 grains of powder.
2. 50 grain capacity x 90% load density = 45 grains of powder

Larry (kb0vso)
Northern Minnesota usa
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KB0VSO
Average Member

USA
125 Posts

Posted - Dec 12 2015 :  13:50:34  Show Profile Send KB0VSO a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Best bullet for your gun

What is the best bullet for your gun is determined by the twist of the barrel.

Calculate a stability factor for a bullet using the Miller stability formula. Output is red for unstable, yellow for marginal stability and green for stable.
Calculator is located at >>>http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

Input Data (Example)
Barrel Twist
For a 10" twist barrel, enter 10 inches.
Bullet Weight
The weight of the bullet.
Bullet Length
Total length of the bullet.
Plastic Tip Length
Length of the plastic "ballistic tip" if it exists. Otherwise zero.
Caliber
Diameter of the bullet.
Muzzle Velocity
The velocity of the bullet as either (1) measured at some distance from the muzzle or (2) as estimated from reloading data. The on-line ballistics page can correct for the distance to chronograph. (The velocity lost traveling to the chronograph.)
Pressure
The absolute barometric pressure.
Temperature
The measured or estimated air temperature.
Output Data
Stability
The Miller stability value. It should be between 1.3 and 2.0 to ensure stability (the military uses 1.5).

Larry (kib0vso)
Northern Minnesota USA
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Ger34
Junior Member



Canada
44 Posts

Posted - Apr 06 2017 :  18:29:30  Show Profile Send Ger34 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well...it's been awhile since I logged in... thanks again for the info on case capacity and load density and bullet selection...phew! alot to digest!

So..."luck o the Irish" struck again for me...2015 was a bust... never saw a single deer in 2015 in rifle or bow season... so freezer was a bit lean.... did a little shooting over the winter but definitely not as dedicated to the sport in 2016 as I was in 2015 ( new boss will do that to you lol)
my Vanguard had a recall on the bolt summer of '16....and the warranty repair centre is about a 3 hr drive from my home.... so about a month before 2016 deer season... i sent it away... Oct 3 , 2016

Received the upgraded bolt in the mail yesterday....... nuff said

I can start shooting again lol
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9124 Posts

Posted - Apr 07 2017 :  11:51:45  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Welcome back. Are you aware of the new forum page?
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Ger34
Junior Member



Canada
44 Posts

Posted - Apr 16 2017 :  07:44:03  Show Profile Send Ger34 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am not Shastaboat
can you forward or post a link please?
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9124 Posts

Posted - Apr 16 2017 :  09:28:05  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote

https://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/
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