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wonderwolf
New Member
USA
20 Posts |
 Posted - May 22 2012 : 21:44:08
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| Since this got dragged up from the depths of the forum I'll post a reply. I did order the "innovative collet die" from larry willis in mid 2009, have used it with the aforementioned .458 WM and .300 WM as well as a new addition in .375 H&H. I neck size only and then use the collet die. Works pretty well on all but the .300 WM, that seems to require a FL resize after 3 or 4 reloads to put the shoulder back a fuzz. |
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Joe King
Senior Member
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2012 : 00:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Savage99
wonderwolf,
You have to reach inside of each case with a wire that has a right angle bend to it. If you feel a significant indentation the case is no good.
Full length resize so that the shoulder of the sized case fits the rifles chamber.
Bingo this is the only way I've ever found to reliably check any bottle neck case for imminent case head separation. And partial resizing, or neck sizing goes a long way for prevention. This is assuming your loading for a single shot or bolt gun. |
you can hit em as hard as you want, but you have to hit em first
Keep in mind the animals we shoot for food and display are not bullet proof. Contrary to popular belief, they bleed and die just like they did a hundred years ago. Being competent with a given rifle is far more important than impressive ballistics and poor shootability. High velocity misses never put a steak in the freezer.
Joe |
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Paul B
Advanced Member
2937 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2012 : 00:54:30
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Bingo this is the only way I've ever found to reliably check any bottle neck case for imminent case head separation. And partial resizing, or neck sizing goes a long way for prevention. This is assuming your loading for a single shot or bolt gun.
[/quote]
Absolutely right. You do not need to neck size belted bras to make it last. Just set up your FL die so that the brass headspaces on the shoulder. You can do it with aneck sizing die too but some neck sizing dies do not support the case and the neck can have run out. I no longer neck size any of my brass but set the FL die up properly.
This is how I set up my sizing die for bottleneck cartridges.
1. Take a once fired factory round and blacken the neck and shoulders with a Magic Marker or Sharpee pen. Some people like to smoke the neck and shoulder, but I find the Magic Marker/Sharpee pen a bit better.
2. Carefully lubricate the case.
3. Loosen the lock ring on the sizing die and back off about two turns from when the die is set to touch the shell holder.
4. Size the case. Note where the marks are on the case and turn the die down about a half a turn and size again. Turn down some more, and resize again. What you are looking for is the marks on the blackening just touching the shoulder.
5. Clean the lube from the case and try it in the rifle. It may chamber just a bit on the snug side. If so, turn the die down ever so slightly, lube and size again. Wipe off the lube and try in the rifle. If it slides in as easily as a factory round, you should be good to go. If not, usually one more very slight adjustment should fix the problem.
6. Tighten the locking ring for the die and you're done. You have just set your sizing die up for a custom fit to your specific rifle, rather than a generic one size fits all guns.
Paul B.
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wonderwolf
New Member
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2012 : 08:45:32
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Ok but that process does not address the issue of the area above the belt enlarging and creating a headspace issue. Your method I use a variation of for my 1000 yard reloads with a few extra steps. after 2 or 3 firings your bolt is going to be harder to close if you back the die off because now you are touching less of the area above the belt when sizing.
I'm afraid there is also 2 problems that are being addressed here as well. 1 is bulging above a belted case and 2. is determining when to scrap cases.
The collet die works fairly well for how I use it. and I do like the fact that it has a check gauge built into it...yes its a bit costly and yes its different but it works for me. It isn't for every reloader thats for sure.
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MIKESBARRO
Advanced Member
USA
2617 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2012 : 21:09:42
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You're having this problem because you are headspacing on the belt instead of the case shoulder. Belted magnums, like non-belted cases, should headspace on the case shoulder. The belt on 99% of all belted magnums aren't even necessary...they are there because manufacturers want you to get the impression that the belt means more power. If they were that necessary, don't you think the .300 RUM et al would have one??? The first belt was put on the old .300 H&H which had NO shoulder to speak of and HAD to headspace on the belt. All others are pretty much there for show and to be sexy. They serve no other purpose
Mike |
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F. Guffey
Advanced Member
USA
645 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2012 : 11:29:28
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“The belt on 99% of all belted magnums aren't even necessary...they are there because manufacturers want you to get the impression that the belt means more power”
H&H developed the belted case long before the Internet and had no intention of misleading anyone about the the purpose of the belt, for H&H the belt had one purpose, they used the belt to hold the case to the rear, what happened in front of the belt was not a concern, same for the rimmed case, the purpose of the rim was to hold the case to the rear, again, what happened in front of the rim was not a concern, when the trigger was pulled the rim held the case to the rear and the case expanded to fill the chamber.
The long tapper of the 303, 300 H&H was about manufacturing, later the modified/improve chamber was developed, less case body tapper and less shoulder taper.
Fire forming, the act of pulling the trigger, not necessary to understand what happens when the trigger is pulled, it helps to understand the effect the chamber has on the case when fired as it applies to the ‘leaver policy’, I apply the ‘leaver policy’ after firing and the case forms to the chamber and the length of the chamber is established I leave the shoulder where I founder.
There is confusion among fire formers when fire forming, they believe the case stretches between the belt and case body (back to the part where H&H had little concern about what happened in front of the belt) and the belief the shoulder moves forward. I am not a fire former, when I pull the trigger and the case is held to the rear of the chamber the shoulder does not move, it is erased, flattens and becomes part of the case body and part of the neck becomes part of the shoulder.
Stretch between the head of the case and case body happens when the case is driven forward and locks onto the chamber, not understood, the design of the receiver. I have fired cases that were .127 thousandths shorter from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case than the the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber, by Internet definition I should have had case head separation, instead I ejected cases with very short necks meaning the shoulder of the case became part of the case body and and part of the neck became part of the shoulder.
I form first then fire, it is a matter of ignoring the belt and or rim, with bottle neck cases I adjust the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case to off set the length/effect of the chamber.
F. Guffey |
Edited by - F. Guffey on Aug 03 2012 11:31:19 |
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ranger335v
Advanced Member
1561 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2012 : 15:54:16
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H&H developed their slope-shouldered .300 with a belt to be sure it would work/chamber/extract in both double rifles and bolt actions, the belt had nothing to do with "power"/pressure. Dofus shooters immediately figgered it all had to be innerconnected so it was the public that created the myth and ammo makers/advertizers simply played to it. But it was "conventional wisdom" BS so far as anything else went. Sorta like the current popular talk about "inherently accurate" cartridges, pressure "spikes", "ogive" being at bore diameter on a bullet, etc.
Guiffy is correct, for a reloader to size any bottle neck cartridge to stop anywhere but at the shoulder is foolish. |
- Common sense is an uncommon quality - |
Edited by - ranger335v on Aug 03 2012 15:58:37 |
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Onondaga
Advanced Member
USA
1386 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2012 : 22:45:48
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wonderwolf's original question has not been answered about what tolerance to use as a standard before scrapping brass.
You can use brass till it splits or falls apart or primers don't seat snugly. I re-anneal after every 8 loading cycles and mostly collet neck size bottle neck calibers and partially full size straight walled ones like my .458 WM.
The .510 to .513 you are measuring on your .458 brass only indicates use. .514 would indicate high pressure abuse in the .458. A good full sizing will reduce that back some.
The belted mag collet dies will get your measured area back to specks very well, but do be aware that all working of the brass work hardens it and makes it brittle. I only size brass enough so that it will have sufficient neck tension for bullets and function in the firearm.
Gary |
Fine rifles are never really owned. |
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Belted Magnum tolerance Q
