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Jerkey
Starting Member
USA
6 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 20 2012 : 01:24:00
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I just started loading rifle. I've been adjusting a new case trimmer and a few of my brass have measured in the 1.748 range. Do you think those rounds are ok to load and if so how short will you go before you pitch the case.
Thanks,
Mike |
Thanks,
Mike |
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Onondaga
Advanced Member
USA
1386 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2012 : 15:16:25
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1.760" is listed maximum length for the .223 Rem.case. General recommendations are to trim .005" shorter at most. Your cases at 1.748" range have been severely over-shortened. If you try seating cannelure bullets to the case mouth to locate cannelure there your loads could be dangerously overpressure. I recommend tossing the short ones.
Gary |
Fine rifles are never really owned. |
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ten2six
Advanced Member
USA
2895 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2012 : 20:06:45
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+1 to Gary if it's just a few cases.
If you're using bullets without cannelures and/or not crimping you could load them and use them for plinking or target practice. I wouldn't use them for hunting, competition, or likewise without seeing how accuracy is affected.
What type of rifle are you shooting these in and what are you loading for?
ten |
"Chances are, when we meet intelligent life forms in outer space, they're going to be descended from predators."
- Michio Kaku |
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Jerkey
Starting Member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2012 : 22:44:10
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AR15 for target & plinking. The bullets are 69gr Sierra Matchking. Will be using a Lee Factory Crimp Die for a light crimp. Also I setup my Lee Seating Die for a 2.260 OAL on my first cartridge. Is it normal for your OAL's to vary from case to case. Varying as much as .008. To get them all to 2.260 I've been backing off the seating die a full turn and adjusting down every case so I don't go short.
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Thanks,
Mike |
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Onondaga
Advanced Member
USA
1386 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2012 : 23:47:35
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Jerkey:
.008" variation on LOA is not even surprising. Try to understand that the Lee bullet seating die does not even touch the tip of the bullet where you are measuring. The Lee die has a hollowed out cone and the mouth edge of that cone bullet seating stem only touches the curvature of the bullet ogive. Not the tip.
Bullet tips have a lot of variance in tip exact shape at the very tip, but using the Lee will get the ogive of the bullet seated to less than .001" accuracy every time if the die and the brass and shell holder are clean and there is no damage to the case heads. The Lee system works so well seating by the ogive that many other die manufacturers have copied that feature.
Set the die for a functioning LOA in your magazine and chamber and forget about it and stop measuring unless you have a very expensive tool that measures at the bullet ogive and NOT the tip. If you start with the expensive tool that measures at the bullet ogive, all you are going to prove is that the Lee design is the best there is for seating bullets by the ogive.
GARY |
Fine rifles are never really owned. |
Edited by - Onondaga on Jul 21 2012 23:48:27 |
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win308
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2013 : 10:38:50
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| I've trimmed cases too short and they function just fine....just don't crimp. You never crimp a bullet that doesn't have a canalure anyway. Sierra Match Kings have thin jackets and crimping ruins accuracy. Load with stick powder (4895 or Varget) and crimping is not required to get unifirm ignition. |
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member
USA
2662 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2013 : 12:54:03
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| I find that loading .223 on my Pro1000 that as cases stretch it causes me problems in the powder charging die. Dumps powder all over the place. I use a Lyman power trimmer to bach trim cases now. I disagree with Gary on this one. The trim length on .223 is 1.750; thus 1.748 is .002 less. Hardly measureable. Also if you set the seating die to crimp on the cannelure you won't have a problem with .002 difference. OAL will be the same. You will seat at the bottom of the cannelure but no big deal. The recoil or action cycleing of a semi auto of a .223 really doesn't need a crimp on the bullet anyway. |
Edited by - Shastaboat on Feb 19 2013 13:00:26 |
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Hockeynick39
Advanced Member
USA
2728 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2013 : 18:22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by win308
I've trimmed cases too short and they function just fine....just don't crimp. You never crimp a bullet that doesn't have a canalure anyway. Sierra Match Kings have thin jackets and crimping ruins accuracy. Load with stick powder (4895 or Varget) and crimping is not required to get unifirm ignition.
Who says if a bullet doesn't have a cannelure that you don't crimp it and who also says that you have to absolutely crimp a bullet in the cannelure? Just asking because I crimp everything regardless and have never had a problem. If you can point to an authority, then I might believe you, somewhat. |
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win308
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2013 : 23:16:13
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Hockeynick 39
From the Sierra Reloading Manual on how to load match ammo for Service Rifles:
"To counteract this tendency, the semi-auto shooter is left with basically two options: applying a crimp or increasing neck tension. The first option, crimping, brings up some other issues that can be troublesome. In general, crimping degrades accuracy. Most match bullets are not cannelured (which also seriously damages accuracy potential), a requirement for correct application of most crimps. Still, there are taper crimp dies available from most of the major manufacturers. Lee offers their “Factory Crimp” die as an alternative, which seems to be one of the better options for those bullets without a cannelure. That having been said, crimping is still, at best, an occasionally necessary evil. Avoid it if at all possible.
If you get joy from crimping your rifle rounds, I certainly don't want to take away from your reloading experience by suggesting you shouldn't. Crimp away, my friend....I'm just passing on what Sierra Bullets suggests is a practice that "degrades accuracy."
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm |
Edited by - win308 on Feb 19 2013 23:25:47 |
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member
USA
2662 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2013 : 02:32:44
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| I'm with Hockynick on this one. Lot's of unproven theory gets thrown around in reloading manuals. Experience is best. |
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Hockeynick39
Advanced Member
USA
2728 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2013 : 06:50:58
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quote:
Originally posted by win308
Hockeynick 39
From the Sierra Reloading Manual on how to load match ammo for Service Rifles:
"To counteract this tendency, the semi-auto shooter is left with basically two options: applying a crimp or increasing neck tension. The first option, crimping, brings up some other issues that can be troublesome. In general, crimping degrades accuracy. Most match bullets are not cannelured (which also seriously damages accuracy potential), a requirement for correct application of most crimps. Still, there are taper crimp dies available from most of the major manufacturers. Lee offers their “Factory Crimp” die as an alternative, which seems to be one of the better options for those bullets without a cannelure. That having been said, crimping is still, at best, an occasionally necessary evil. Avoid it if at all possible.
If you get joy from crimping your rifle rounds, I certainly don't want to take away from your reloading experience by suggesting you shouldn't. Crimp away, my friend....I'm just passing on what Sierra Bullets suggests is a practice that "degrades accuracy."
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm
Pure genius right there, I tell you wot!
Here's a 5 shot group on .223 based wildcat that is crimped well above the cannelure:
This is a 3 shot group @ 100 yds of Sierra 125 gr HPs from my Tikka T3 Lite SS, also crimped because there is no cannelure:
3 Shot group from the same .30-06 with a 165 gr SST:
This is another 3 shot group @ 100 yds with another Tikka T3 Lite SS in 6.5 x 55 SE:
The same rifle shooting a 95 gr V-Max:
So as you say, yes I will crimp and degrade my rifles accuracy, thank you very much. Also thanks for asking whether I was a competition shooter or just plinking/ hunting. All of those targets were shot from a sandbag laying on a bench, none of them crimped on a cannelure, or some of the bullets were even crimped without a cannelure. Just for S&G, here is a picture of a .243 target that was crimped in the cannelure:
I believe that all of them qualify as hunting rounds. Also, manuals are guides, not Bibles. If you read the Hornady manual, Lee manual, and Lyman's manual, all of them suggest a crimp amnd not just for bullets with cannelures, or ammunition used in magazines (tubular or otherwise), or even in revolvers. So you maybe have vastly more experience than anybody on here on competition loading, but this is my experience with what I am doing with hunting ammunition and it works damn well for me and several others. Good luck and stay safe |
Edited by - Hockeynick39 on Feb 20 2013 07:10:05 |
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member
USA
2662 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2013 : 15:29:29
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| +10 for Hockeynick!!! |
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win308
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2013 : 22:27:23
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| Your crimping is now fully approved........... |
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223 trimmnig question
