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Jack D
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 14:44:46
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Don't bullet manufacturers give recommended impact velocities for their various bullets? For instance, Hornady advertises their FTX performance as "...devastating terminal performance across a wide range of velocities" but doesn't say what those velocities are. It seems none of the manufacturers supply that data. The Hornady .358 180gr InterLock® SP Single Shot Pistol bullet looks like it might be good for use in a .357 magnum single shot rifle, but would it perform well at down range velocities in a .357 magnum rifle? Same with the 200 gr. FTX . Speer also has a 180 gr. SPFP that might work well, but again no recommended impact velocities.
I might guess that they would not expand well at .357 downrange velocities, but then again, if a .357 velocity at 100 yds is similar to a .35 Remington at 300 yds......why not? A .357 Magnum rifle is not a 300 yd rifle.
My rant for the day.  |
Jack |
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ten2six
Advanced Member
USA
2895 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 15:23:28
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Hey Jack,
No disrespect, but part of a reloader's responsibility is knowing how to figure this out themself.
Consider all the myriad ways to calculate stopping power...
- Taylor's Knockout Factor
- Thorniley Stopping Power
- Optimum Game Weight
- Hornady Index of Terminal Standards
- Bekker Knock-out Value
Bullet weight, terminal velocity, bullet design, sectional density...these you have to factor for the size & nature of the beast.
ten  |
"Chances are, when we meet intelligent life forms in outer space, they're going to be descended from predators."
- Michio Kaku |
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Onondaga
Advanced Member
USA
1386 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 15:37:15
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Jack!!!
I feel your concern. This is why I gave up on jacketed bullets with their subjective reports and no specific data on terminal impact. My opinion is that they all suck compared to my bullets cast in Lyman #2 alloy. Lyman #2 has a reliable reputation over 100 years old. Bullets made with #2 can be expected expand to double in caliber upon impact with game animals and retain 100% bullet weight at ranges where there is 1,000 foot pounds or more energy remaining. Running a simple ballistic chart tells you what your maximum distance is with that energy level for a clean kill with a vital hit on game and a bullet that has doubled in caliber and retained 100% of it's weight.
There are no jacketed bullets that approach the ability to double in diameter AND retain 100% weight on impact with game.
Gary |
Fine rifles are never really owned. |
Edited by - Onondaga on Mar 19 2012 15:58:41 |
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45colt
Advanced Member
1267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 18:56:21
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Hey Jack,
Pick up a Hornady manual and read it. There is a very lengthy list of their bullets with the velocity ratings.
Pick up a Sierra manual. They also have a lengthy section with their bullets and velocity ratings.
Pick up the phone, or e-mail the mfg and ASK them. They are very helpful when you call. I've called Speer more than once and asked about using their bullets fro things they may not be designed for and they have always given me the answers I needed. |
"I'd rather die for something, then stand for nothing."
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45colt
Advanced Member
1267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 18:59:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Onondaga
Jack!!!
I feel your concern. This is why I gave up on jacketed bullets with their subjective reports and no specific data on terminal impact. My opinion is that they all suck compared to my bullets cast in Lyman #2 alloy. Lyman #2 has a reliable reputation over 100 years old. Bullets made with #2 can be expected expand to double in caliber upon impact with game animals and retain 100% bullet weight at ranges where there is 1,000 foot pounds or more energy remaining. Running a simple ballistic chart tells you what your maximum distance is with that energy level for a clean kill with a vital hit on game and a bullet that has doubled in caliber and retained 100% of it's weight.
There are no jacketed bullets that approach the ability to double in diameter AND retain 100% weight on impact with game.
Gary
Swift A-Frame
Barnes
Trophy Bonded
GMX
E-tip
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"I'd rather die for something, then stand for nothing."
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Jack D
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 13:12:52
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"Bullet weight, terminal velocity, bullet design, sectional density...these you have to factor for the size & nature of the beast."
None of these tell me what a particular bullet will do at any given impact velocity.
Recently, I worked up a load for my SS .357 Mag. rifle using the Hornady 140 gr FTX bullet over 20 gr. of IMR4227. The MV is probably somewhere around 2050 fps from my 16" barrel. I was told that Hornady doesn't recommend the FTX to exceed 1600 fps. Then that person sent me an email from Hornady that said the .357 FTX was a pistol bullet designed for 800-1600 fps velocities (no distinction between MV or IV). I then said I thought they were referring to the COL for the cartridge to be 1.59" so it will fit in all pistols and lever guns, but that my rifle was a SS and I could use much longer COL's. To settle the matter, I wrote to Hornady, asking the question differently, explaining that I was loading for a SS rifle and COL was not limited to 1.59". Hornady wrote back and said that while the recommended velocities were between 800-1600 fps (again, no distinction between MV or IV) they had a 2000 fps cushion. Yes. That's two thousand fps. Again, no distinction between MV or IV). Their reply to both of us was completely ambiguous. I might add that there website states that the FTX bullet has a velocity rating up to 3000 fps with no distinction between rifle or pistol. Looking at a few other bullet spec. data I see nothing to indicate what IV's they are designed to function best at.
Over the years, I've loaded for several bottle neck rifle cartridges and experimented with many different types of bullets and I can't remember how many times I've been told that a particular bullet isn't going to do the job at the velocity I've loaded it to. How does anyone know that? And, more importantly, how can I know that it will, short of trying to kill something with it. Can't afford ballistics gel and the nearest range is over 40 miles away. Can't just load a few and test it somehow. Yet the manufacturers must know how they designed it and at what impact velocities it will perform well at. Why can't they tell us that information so we can make intelligent choices?
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Jack |
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45colt
Advanced Member
1267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 14:45:13
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| I can tell you this much, you're getting too worried about things. I've driven a .452 250gr Hornady XTP to 2100fps and still drove it thru 3' of animal at only 40yds. As a matter of fact, I have killed 6 different deer with that bullet at that velocity and it has never failed. Through shoulders, spines, ribs, guts,it didn't matter. The bullet just kept going and tearing things up. That bullet is also only rated to 1400-1600fps on the high side. It kills critters without a worry. The manuals give you a velocity guideline, but that doesn't mean they are going to become bombs on the animal if you exceed the limit. Stick with a proven design [Hot-Cor, XTP, interlock, pro-hunter, gold-dot, etc.] and you will be in fine shape. |
"I'd rather die for something, then stand for nothing."
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338User
Senior Member
Australia
230 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2012 : 01:21:18
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| Swift A Frame, and Woodleigh Weldcore bullets have a great reputation, and Woodleigh do specify a range of recommended impact velocities. Even if you exceed these they generally still hold together but you can get more expansion than you want for optimum penetration. However if you stay within the recommended range they work as they should, with double diameter expansion (or close to it) and high weight retention. Of the non jacketed bullets any of the copper hollow points like Barnes should also work well. |
338User |
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cfvickers
Advanced Member
1847 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2012 : 15:15:46
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| With 90% of rifle bullets .243-.338 the minimum impact velocity which they will reliably expand is between 1700 and 1800 fps. With barnes X style bullets it is between 1900 and 2100. The information is out there but hard to find. |
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Jack D
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2012 : 13:06:30
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One bullet, in particular, has my interest. The Hornady .358 180 gr. Interlock SP SSP. But it is .358" and not .357". I've been told by folks who should know, that I can use the .358 bullet in my .357, but pressures could be higher than normal...all else being equal. That make sense. Hornady calls it a "pistol" bullet, so I think that means it will expand properly at lower velocities than a similar bullet made for a rifle.....but that is only a WAG. Again, I can't find anything about designed impact velocities for this bullet.
My calculations show me that IF (and that's a big if) I can get 1700 fps MV that computes to 1236 fps at 200 yds. and a little over 600'# energy. Trajectory ranges from +5.5" at 100 yds to -4.3" at 200 yds. when 0" at 25yds and 175yds. A perfectly acceptable trajectory and range for hunting in my area.
http://www.hornady.com/store/35-Cal-.358-180-gr-SP-Single-Shot-Pistol/
I hate to buy a box of bullets that I may not be able to use, but Fathers Day is coming and I have two sons.......Maybe.
In the opinions of those reading this, can I safely use .358 jacketed bullets in a .357 magnum rifle? |
Jack |
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yukondog
Senior Member
223 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 21:05:06
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| You can go crazy trying to read to much into these things,as already said the man. are guide lines,I call the man. and tell them what my velocits at muzz.[ chronyed] calculat what it is at inpact and ask if it will expand at ipact velocity,I shoot the horn. 180 sspb in a ss .357 at around 1500 fps if your gun is accurate at 75 to 100 yrds. it will kill a deer,after talking to speer [tech.] they tell me that there 180 is not designed to expand at the slower velocity and thats good enough for me. |
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Paul B
Advanced Member
2934 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2012 : 01:15:51
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I load the 158 gr. Lyman #358156 gas check bullet cast from a wheel weight, linotype mix and anything I've shot with that bullet has died.
As a matter of fact, 99.9 percent of my handgun bullets shooting is with cast bullets in my gun. AlsoI probably shoot 10 rounds of cast bullets in my rifles for every one jacketed bullet.
Paul B. |
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Big 4
Average Member
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2012 : 02:57:17
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I have seen too many deer shot with the 357 to call it devastating at any range! In most pistols I also prefer hard cast flat nose Keith bullets but in rifles bullets perform at all decent ranges today...
Some of this long range (2000 yard) shooting at game animals such as deer sheep and elk may need to use softer Sierras for instance, but IMO we only hear about the long range clean kills, not the broken legs and gut shots. |
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Bobo7mmmag
Advanced Member
2377 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2012 : 09:51:51
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Jack D
Get some and shoot them into one gallon jugs of water. |
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Why? Why? Why?
