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 44 Mag...heavy, medium or light crimp
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hot chilly powder
New Member



23 Posts

Posted - Mar 28 2017 :  19:08:17  Show Profile Send hot chilly powder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have reloaded 44 mag rounds for years, stout loads & heavy crimps. Now have been loading 240 gr lead SWCs & using medium to medium heavy crimps, see any problems with hard cast lead bullets with this crimp style.....yes it is roll crimps. Loads are in the 850 to 1100 fps range.

Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4017 Posts

Posted - Mar 28 2017 :  20:15:36  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hot chilly powder

You can cause a real serious problem with too much roll crimp in your application. You can do 2 harmful things with too much crimp:

1) You can distort cast bullets to adversely effect bullet diameter fit that seals gasses to prevent gas jetting, bullet stability in the bore and lower accuracy potential.

2) You can bulge brass adjacent to the crimp to loosen bullet fit to the brass and also effect concentricity of ammo and accuracy potential.


Roll crimps are subjective to interpret and are NOT measurable, That is why I prefer tapered or collet crimping. taper and collet crimps can easily be measured and compared to sized case mouth diameter in thousandths of an inch. A heavy crimp decreases case mouth diameter .004" at the crimp. More is useless and less is light for light loads. I collet crimp my .458 Win Mag cast bullet Bear loads .004" to prevent bullet set back in the rifle magazine from recoil. This works fine and I have never gotten bullet setback in thousands of rounds.

Gary

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9124 Posts

Posted - Mar 28 2017 :  23:20:16  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Again I say BS to Onandaga's response. Revolver cases require a roll crimp not a tapered crimp. Especially if shooting heavy charges. 850-1100 fps are moderate velocities in a revolver chambered in 44 mag. Assuming 240-250 gr bullets a moderate roll crimp is sufficient if you are using a medium burn rate pistol/shotgun powder. With slow burning powders like 2400, H110 or 4227 you will want a heavy full roll crimp. If in doubt as to your ability to set a good roll crimp, simply use a factory round to set your seating die body. You can go to the extra expense and buy LEE factory crimp dies if you want but frankly I've never seen the need for the extra expense.

Edited by - Shastaboat on Mar 29 2017 11:29:11
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WonderMan4
Advanced Member

USA
2847 Posts

Posted - Mar 28 2017 :  23:26:20  Show Profile Send WonderMan4 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
^^^^^^
+1
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4017 Posts

Posted - Mar 29 2017 :  04:56:17  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shastaboat

Again I say BS to Onandaga's response. Revolver cases require a roll crimp not a tapered crimp. Especially if shooting heavy charges. 850-1100 fps are moderate velocities in a revolver chambered in 44 mag. Assuming 240-250 gr bullets a moderate roll crimp is sufficient if you are using a medium burn rate pistol/shotgun powder. With slow burning powders like 240, H110 or 4227 you will want a heavy full roll crimp. If in doubt as to your ability to set a good rool crimp, simply use a factory round to set your seating die body. You can go to the extra expense and buy LEE factory crimp dies if you want but frankly I've never seen the need for the extra expense.



Your BS makes me not want to give encouragement and recommendations to people asking questions.
FOAD

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9124 Posts

Posted - Mar 29 2017 :  11:27:20  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rules of engagement:
1. Not everyone wants to shoot cast bullets 100% of the time.
2. Not everyone wants to shoot cast bullets.
3. Not everyone wants to exclusively use LEE products.
4. Firearm blowups are rare.
5. Many handloaders are looking for "MAX" performance, not 10% below max.
6. Different opinions don't mean those opinions are "UNSAFE". Just a different mind set.
7. We can agree to disagree. And still drink beer together.
8. Different hunting and shooting conditions may exist in the East vs the West.
9. Disagreements and experimentation are what keeps this sport of "Handloading" alive and interesting.
10. Old established methods and terms may conflict with newby technology and developed terms. Load data is still not a recipe!
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Paul B
Advanced Member

3969 Posts

Posted - Mar 29 2017 :  14:29:01  Show Profile Send Paul B a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IIRC, I acquired my first .44 magnum around 1957 or maybe 1958, just don't remember exactly when. Guy ordered one at the gun shop I worked in and traded in a register S&W .357 Magnum. Shop gave the guy $75 in trade for the .44. A short while later, maybe a week or so I was at the range shooting that registered .357 when the guy that bought the .44 showed up. He shot one cylinder full and said, "I should have kept my .357. He did know I had the gun. I asked if I could try the .44 and didn't find it all hat bad. I showed him his .357 and asked if we could trade. That's how I got my first .44 Mag. and I've had quite a few since and have loaded a lot for them.
Elmer Keith said the .44 using 2400 required a stout crimp and when I loaded for mine, I set the crimp as shown in pictures of Elmer's handloads. Never had a problem with bullets pulling forward and accuracy has been just fine. The only bullet I load in the .44 is Elmer's Lyman #429241. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I do agree with gary that you can over crimp a bullet, especially with jacketed but I've never had a problem with cast in any revolver round, be it .38 Spl. or .44 mag.
Paul B.
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mikld
Advanced Member



USA
657 Posts

Posted - Mar 30 2017 :  13:14:30  Show Profile Send mikld a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One of the "problems" and "confusion" about crimping for revolvers is there is no dimension/measurement for crimping. Pistol ammo has dimensions for crimps and easily duplicated by new reloaders. Revolver crimps seem to be more subjective and cause confusion to new reloaders (my "heavy" crimps may only be moderate to another feller, and what, exactly is a light roll crimp?).

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Dues aderit.
At least I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9124 Posts

Posted - Mar 30 2017 :  15:40:16  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mikld

One of the "problems" and "confusion" about crimping for revolvers is there is no dimension/measurement for crimping. Pistol ammo has dimensions for crimps and easily duplicated by new reloaders. Revolver crimps seem to be more subjective and cause confusion to new reloaders (my "heavy" crimps may only be moderate to another feller, and what, exactly is a light roll crimp?).



Well this is all true. It is kind of like the old machinist theory of making something fit with no specific regard to what the part measures. Think of setting up a sizing die by marking or smoking a fired case shoulder vs trying to actually measure a rifle chamber shoulder data line measurement and them setup a sizing die and bumping the shoulder back .002". You can buy all the fancy measuring tools in the world but may not get any better results than the old system of fitting a part to another part.
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Kosh75287
Advanced Member



USA
796 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2017 :  10:33:39  Show Profile Send Kosh75287 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At the risk of resurrecting an old thread, I'll mention that I've shot rounds through revolvers that were roll-crimped as well as rounds that were taper-crimped. With similar loads, I found no measurable difference in accuracy, even with very hard crimps of either kind. Not having shot many plated projectiles, I'll defer to the experience of others concerning what the effect of too much crimp is on those.

I've also inadvertently shot roll-crimped .45 ACP in at least three automatic pistols, and the difference was not apparent to me until someone else pointed it out. It functioned perfectly, and grouped as well as the shooter's skills allowed.

As for how much crimp is too much, I intuit that it is in the eye of the beholder (shooter). I don't know that much is gained by crimping more heavily than necessary to prevent bullet "pull-out" in revolver rounds. In automatic pistol rounds, MY rule of thumb is to use enough crimp to remove "bell" in the case mouth, and then 1/8 turn more on the die. So far, it has worked very well for me. Using a factory round to initially approximate crimp and adjust from there seems entirely sensible to me, though it seems to me that accuracy tends to favor lighter crimp (if other factors do not intervene).


God bless Jeff Cooper

Carpe SCOTCH!
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mikld
Advanced Member



USA
657 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2017 :  12:03:23  Show Profile Send mikld a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My favorite all time cartridge is the .44 Magnum. I started reloading for it in '87 and have tried everything from 123 gr. balls to 310 gr T-Rex killers. I have 3 revolvers and each requires a roll crimp (I call my crimps medium heavy). I don't have a taper crimp die for .44 cal, but I have just "kissed" the case mouth with a Profile Crimp die to taper crimp depth crimps. 98 out 100 bullets (my cast 429241s) walked with recoil when not roll crimped...

Really though this thread should stop...

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Dues aderit.
At least I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

Edited by - mikld on Jun 27 2017 12:04:57
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