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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
3986 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  16:38:11  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cases will not expand larger than chamber dimension unless you over pressure loads and stretch your chamber. That is not an opinion, that is physics and metallurgy.

The expansion and shrinkage you mention has a normal range related to the condition of your brass anneal and your load range. Over pressure changes that and so does a die setting that compresses over length brass.

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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TX_Medic
New Member

18 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  16:38:51  Show Profile Send TX_Medic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shastaboat

Sorry to jump in here late. Full length size your brass first. If it doesn't fit in the trimmer after that your full length sizer die is at fault. In your Pic, I don't see a magnum case rim. Are you sure of the caliber of your 700ADL? I'm not familiar with your trimmer brand. I've never seen a trimmer set up like that. Finally, is your Redding sizing die a Full length sizer or a neck sizer only?



That is not my picture, I took that from Giraud's website, just to show what im talking about. I have both a FL and neck size die. Ive FL sized and it didnt fix the issue.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
3986 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  16:49:42  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is easy for an experienced loader to diagnose and prove where your problems lie by using machinist indicator ink on your brass before every step of loading, chambering, un-chambering and loading again. You can say a lot and do nothing and get nowhere if that is what you choose to do. However, I believe your error is serious and dangerous to yourself and innocent bystanders.

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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TX_Medic
New Member

18 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  17:53:42  Show Profile Send TX_Medic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Onondaga

It is easy for an experienced loader to diagnose and prove where your problems lie by using machinist indicator ink on your brass before every step of loading, chambering, un-chambering and loading again. You can say a lot and do nothing and get nowhere if that is what you choose to do. However, I believe your error is serious and dangerous to yourself and innocent bystanders.



Thats what i came here for, to find out if i have an issue i need to address, or if the variation I found is within normal limits. I do not have any overpressure signs with the cases in question, nor do i have any difficulty extracting the cartridge after firing(since having the chamber re-reamed). The only reason I found this was in trying to use my power trimmer and trying to find out why it wasn't working. Which is why i was't convinced I have an actual issue.
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Paul B
Advanced Member

3960 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  18:00:55  Show Profile Send Paul B a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tx. The confusion comes partly from you have the problem regardless of which sizing method you use. So, the first thing I would do is check that "shell holder's" dimensions.
Does new unfired brass fit OK? Just my not very humble opinion but that trimmer you're using is an overpriced piece of you name it that claims precision. Maybe it does, I dunno but it sure looks complicated to me. For me the old RCBS hand cranker hooked up to a 1/2" drill works just fine.

Without the gun and tools involved it's hard for us to diagnose any problem. I have worked for a gunsmith quite a few years back so if I were close I could do a personal inspection of the gun and tools.

Seriously, I would check out that shell holder and Gary's idea of a chamber cast is also a good one. If the chamber cast shows the problem, then I would be looking at a new barrel from the gunsmith, or better yet, have him pay a more competent smith to do the job. Try this. Dunno if it'll do much good but lay a shell of two on a mirror. The entire side of the case should make contact. Roll the case back and forth to see if you can see light under the shell. Any discrepancy might/would indicate a damaged chamber. it's just a rough check and should be verified via chamber cast. Best I can do for you.
Paul B.
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TX_Medic
New Member

18 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  18:17:52  Show Profile Send TX_Medic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unfired brass does fit the shellholder. I also wont argue with you about the giraud being overpriced. As much as i hate trimming brass, it has not lived up to the hype, nor was it worth what i paid for it. Ill look into the things you suggested and report back with my findings...Thanks for the help!
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9031 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  18:27:32  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I doubt that your gunsmith ruined your chamber or barrel. By rechambering, all he did was to take out the original chamber burr and no more. If you full length resized brass fits your chamber I'd say the problem lies with the Giraud products. You also said your expansion measurement at the pressure ring was .004". The SAAMI head diameter of a 7MM Rem Mag is .513". What is your fired case head diameter in front of the case belt measure vs the measured dimension of a fired un-sized case measure?

Edited by - Shastaboat on Aug 06 2017 18:33:59
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
628 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  19:33:15  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Giraud power trimmer:

http://www.giraudtool.com/Giraud%20Trimmer.pdf

Ray
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TX_Medic
New Member

18 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  20:12:17  Show Profile Send TX_Medic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Measurements above the belt are as follows-

Unfired, factory Remington-0.506
Fireformed 1x Norma, not sized in any way-0.514/5...varies case to case
Full length sized-0.512/3...again, varies case to case
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
3986 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  20:20:57  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shastaboat

I doubt that your gunsmith ruined your chamber or barrel. By rechambering, all he did was to take out the original chamber burr and no more. If you full length resized brass fits your chamber I'd say the problem lies with the Giraud products. You also said your expansion measurement at the pressure ring was .004". The SAAMI head diameter of a 7MM Rem Mag is .513". What is your fired case head diameter in front of the case belt measure vs the measured dimension of a fired un-sized case measure?



Lets clarify here for safety. The pressure ring is a very specific area of the case where the case head web thickness runs out into the body case wall thickness. You have to identify that area on your brass for a valid measurement of pressure ring diameter on brass, then next compare that measurement 2 different times, once after firing a known safe load ~5% under max. Then again with your loads as you work them up and test fire.

The life or death warning is if you measure more than .001" larger than the KNOWN safe load at the pressure ring. Not .004", you may not live that long through a .004 increase past safe load at the pressure ring, you will be over 100,000 psi at .004 over safe if your rifle survives. And if your rifle survives a .004" gain at the pressure ring, the rifle is ruined and unsafe.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Aug 06 2017 20:28:15
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mtmuley
Advanced Member

USA
1806 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  20:28:34  Show Profile Send mtmuley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've never heard of a "pressure ring". Any info to back up the existence of a "pressure ring"? mtmuley
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
3986 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  20:39:58  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TX_Medic

Measurements above the belt are as follows-

Unfired, factory Remington-0.506
Fireformed 1x Norma, not sized in any way-0.514/5...varies case to case
Full length sized-0.512/3...again, varies case to case



Measurement above the belt is not specific enough and very UN-useful for measuring pressure ring. Learn the terms "case head web" and case wall thickness at the case body very specifically. The juncture where the web runs out to the case wall is the correct area to identify and measure pressure rings, no where else. You can find that area by cutting a case lengthwise or several try feels with a wire probe into the brass feeling for the run out of the web.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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woods
Advanced Member

USA
2128 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  21:03:14  Show Profile Send woods a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't see any cause for alarm. The OP has a chamber that is larger than expected and the brass has expanded past where it will fit in his Girard "shell holder". Innovative has a belted case body sizer that may help his situation.

http://larrywillis.com/

Otherwise he will have to find another way to trim. No big deal.

Cases will expand to fit whatever chamber they are fired in. Chambers vary


When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

After Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9031 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  21:22:22  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TX_Medic

Measurements above the belt are as follows-

Unfired, factory Remington-0.506
Fireformed 1x Norma, not sized in any way-0.514/5...varies case to case
Full length sized-0.512/3...again, varies case to case



I think your chamber is fine. Again the problem is with the case trimming equipment. Your brass is expanding .002-.003 to fit your chamber after being resized. Factory brass is way undersized in this case. The sized brass is under SAAMI specs.


Edited by - Shastaboat on Aug 06 2017 21:26:22
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TX_Medic
New Member

18 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  21:36:26  Show Profile Send TX_Medic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shasta and Woods, I agree with you. Just did quite a bit of measuring off of SAAMI specs and they are all within their tolerances for both my fire formed, and FL sized brass. The factory brass i have is undersized when measured against SAAMI specs, which accounts for the difference I was seeing. This leaves the issue to the Giraud "shell holder," and not my chamber or die. Thanks for the help all!
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