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TX_Medic
New Member

18 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  11:41:20  Show Profile Send TX_Medic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, a little background. Last year i bought a Remington 700 ADL in 7mag. I didnt shoot it till several months later and found that after firing a cartridge the brass was sticking in the chamber. Long story short, there was a burr from the factory and I ended up having a local smith re-ream the chamber for me.

I have now started reloading for the gun, which is where i found another issue. I use a giraud power trimmer. Initially I neck sized my brass and found that the cases were sticking inside the giraud case holder. First thought was maybe I just needed to FL size. Did that, however, my FL sized brass is still coming out 0.004 wider in the body than factory unfired brass, and its still sticking in the case holder. I contacted giraud and was informed that the 0.004 expansion is more than what is typical.

This is where Im lost and don't know where to start. I emailed Redding thinking it was possibly a faulty die, but they are out of shop till the 14th.

If it matters, I am using Norma brass for load workup, however, i still have the issue with factory brass i've fired as well.

My questions:
1) is the 0.004 expansion in the body excessive to what should be expected? And if so, could it be related to an oversized chamber?
2) Even with the possible over-expansion, shouldn't my FL die size it down to SAMMI specs?

Sorry for the long post. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
628 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  15:06:18  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't understand your description of:
"my FL sized brass is still coming out 0.004 wider in the body than factory unfired brass"
combined with:
"was informed that the 0.004 expansion is more than what is typical."

I wasn't aware that the brass would expand .004" back out after FL resizing.
Could it be that the die set just sizes to 0.004" over factory?

Ray
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
3986 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  15:31:57  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TX_Medic

What you list follows the logical pattern if your gunsmith enlarged the case body area when he removed the problematic burr you had. A chamber casting will be the best method to determine that. This chamber casting alloy is excellent, inexpensive, reusable and comes with good instructions: https://www.rotometals.com/chamber-casting-alloy-ingot/ if your smithy enlarged your case body chamber area above SAAMI dimension then litigation is in order and a chamber casting is evidence.

The power trimming is unrelated to your sticking problem in your shell holder unless the jaws of your trimmer are distorting case heads to the point they don't fit the shell holder. You can test for that simply by measuring case head regularity at each step and isolating the step that damages the case heads.

.004 body expansion after firing FL sized brass is in normal range. However, .004 from firing neck sized brass indicates dangerous pressure of your load for your chamber as neck sizing does not touch the case body and leaves the case body in fire formed dimension. Expansion of .004 above case body dimension on firing of neck sized ammo clearly indicates dangerous pressure damage as case bodies should not expand at all by subsequent firing of fire formed neck sized brass.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Aug 06 2017 15:36:59
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TX_Medic
New Member

18 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  15:34:02  Show Profile Send TX_Medic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When i started trying to figure out exactly why my brass was sticking in the case holder, I found that it was sticking about halfway down the body of the cartridge. In this area, it is 0.004 wider than factory unfired brass(which fits in the holder fine). When I spoke to Doug at Giraud he said that this was not normal and fire formed brass typically only expands 0.002".

I guess I am confused myself. On one hand I don't feel like the expansion is really significant, other than it preventing me from using the Giraud. I thought someone might have some insight to this though, as i haven't found anything online about this. On the other hand, I assumed my FL sizer would size the body down, which its not

Im just trying to figure out if i actually have an issue with the chamber, the die, or I am just being inconvenienced because i cant use my power trimmer.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
3986 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  15:39:54  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TX_Medic,
You are all over the place man, isolate, prove and correct one problem at a time.

List your specific bullet weight, type and brand. List your powder and charge. If you are hotter than 5% below book MAXIMUM, then chamber variation from SAAMI chamber dimensions can cause extreme pressure increase and change in brass dimension. That is just basic safety and nothing new.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Aug 06 2017 15:50:27
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TX_Medic
New Member

18 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  15:42:29  Show Profile Send TX_Medic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Onondaga

TX_Medic

What you list follows the logical pattern if your gunsmith enlarged the case body area when he removed the problematic burr you had. A chamber casting will be the best method to determine that. This chamber casting alloy is excellent, inexpensive, reusable and comes with good instructions: https://www.rotometals.com/chamber-casting-alloy-ingot/

The power trimming is unrelated to your sticking problem in your shell holder unless the jaws of your trimmer are distorting case heads to the point they don't fit the shell holder. You can test for that simply by measuring case head regularity at each step and isolating the step that damages the case heads.

.004 body expansion after firing FL sized brass is in normal range. However, .004 from firing neck sized brass indicates dangerous pressure of your load for your chamber as neck sizing does not touch the case body and leaves the case body in fire formed dimension. Expansion of .004 above case body dimension on firing of neck sized ammo clearly indicates dangerous pressure damage as case bodies should not expand at all by subsequent firing of fire formed neck sized brass.

Gary



Thanks!

I think im just going to neck size this batch, take measurements and then see what happens after firing. I really feel like this is a non issue and im just over thinking it.
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TX_Medic
New Member

18 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  15:50:12  Show Profile Send TX_Medic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Onondaga

TX_Medic,
You are all over the place man, isolate, prove and correct one problem at a time.



Im making it more complicated that it is.

I cant use my power trimmer because the brass wont fit in the shell holder for it. I know why its occurring, i just dont know if its actually an issue, or just an inconvenience.

1) My FL sized brass isnt being sized back down to factory dimensions. Is that an issue or is that normal?

2) Is it normal for fire formed brass to expand that much to begin with? When i talked to Giraud he said it was not, so i just wanted to confirm.

Edited by - TX_Medic on Aug 06 2017 15:53:12
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
3986 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  15:55:16  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think you don't understand the effects of fire forming between neck sizing and FL sizing. They are very different.

If your case heads are in SAAMI dimension and don't fit your shell holder, your shell holder is out of specification. You can't argue against that, it is just numbers proving a point.

You should be able to easily hand rotate cases while they are in the shell holder. If you cant, you can measure, detrmine and prove why.

NOTE IMPORTANT: digital calipers and digital micrometers are generally only accurate to .001" and they are insufficient for the job you have to do. You will need one accurate to .0005" And they ain't cheap. Verify the specifications of your measuring device.

Gary


Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Aug 06 2017 16:07:38
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TX_Medic
New Member

18 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  16:02:03  Show Profile Send TX_Medic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Onondaga

I think you don't understand the effects of fire forming between neck sizing and FL sizing. They are very different.

If your case heads are in SAAMI dimension and don't fit your shell holder, your shell holder is out of specification. You can't argue against that, it is just numbers proving a point.



Fire formed brass expands, and then slightly shrinks to dimensions of the chamber? My fire formed brass and FL sized brass are both 0.004 wider in the case body than factory unfired brass. This is the area that is catching on the case/shell holder for the trimmer. I do not have an issue with the case head. The Giraud case holder uses the shoulder to index off of. The holder extends down the body of the case, which is why the difference in body dimensions is preventing me from using it. I will try to take pictures.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
3986 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  16:10:51  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Case body area does not touch shell holders. Shell holders only hold case heads and extraction groove in the case head. Correct your terminology or picture what you are talking about.

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Aug 06 2017 16:11:49
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
3986 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  16:14:10  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At worst you have a serious problem from faulty gunsmithing and your rifle is unsafe. Proceed with caution and seek good professional help.

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
3986 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  16:21:53  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Fire formed brass expands, and then slightly shrinks to dimensions of the chamber?"

NO

Firing brass only makes it larger than chamber dimensions when you over pressure loads and damage your chamber. Your chamber is either bulged from over pressure or your smith made it bulge with his tools. Stop waltzing and list your load and components.

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Aug 06 2017 16:25:29
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TX_Medic
New Member

18 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  16:22:54  Show Profile Send TX_Medic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dont have a way to upload my own pictures however, the piece on the right with the brass inserted is the case holder i am referring to. Hopefully this helps clear up what im trying to say.

fire formed brass expands to chamber dimensions and then slightly shrinks*



Edited by - TX_Medic on Aug 06 2017 16:25:55
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
3986 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  16:28:02  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is not a shell holder on the right, that is a die.

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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TX_Medic
New Member

18 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  16:35:21  Show Profile Send TX_Medic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Onondaga

That is not a shell holder on the right, that is a die.



Giraud calls them case holders. Regardless of what you want to call it, that is what im talking about.
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9031 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2017 :  16:36:17  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry to jump in here late. Full length size your brass first. If it doesn't fit in the trimmer after that your full length sizer die is at fault. In your Pic, I don't see a magnum case rim. Are you sure of the caliber of your 700ADL? I'm not familiar with your trimmer brand. I've never seen a trimmer set up like that. Finally, is your Redding sizing die a Full length sizer or a neck sizer only?
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