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 Recommendations for deer culling
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peterlonz
Starting Member

Australia
4 Posts

Posted - Jun 24 2012 :  23:53:57  Show Profile Send peterlonz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello,
I am new here & Australia (my home) is not a country where firearms knowledge is widespread.
We have a local problem where deer populations have got out of control.
Very similar situations to those I read about in the US.
Persuading the local authority that there is a problem, then exhorting them to do something effective is no simple matter.
I intend to press upon them the need for night culling on private properties (owner authorized of course) using silenced rifles & night vision aids.
My objective is to persuade that such action is probably the most humane, most effective, least intrusive & lowest cost.
Local properties bordering on local forrest are typically 10 to 20 acres in size with rolling contours & generally one occupied home.
I would judge suitable ranges would be 50 to 120 yards max. some "bush"/tree cover is seen on all properties.
I believe a subsonic round in a suitably calibre silenced rifle is the best option to meet the objective.
It is likely that local authority specialist marksmen may be limited to their usual "approved non-silenced rifles" & "available ammo" which is likely to result in low kills & the usual chorus of complaints; IE the "Bambi syndrone".
Greatly appreciate guidance that will help me in presenting factual proven info when discussing these matters.

Josh Smith
New Member

USA
15 Posts

Posted - Jun 25 2012 :  02:36:16  Show Profile  Visit Josh Smith's Homepage Send Josh Smith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello,

I'm not sure whether to answer this. As in, I'm reading this two different ways: Put together a specialized rifle to show the DNR (or the Australian counterpart thereof), or shoot, shovel, and shutup.

If you're not planning anything illegal, you might take a look at the .300 Whisper. A scope adapter, like this one

http://www.hightechredneckincorporated.com/High_Tech_Red_Neck_Day_Night_Riflescope_Adapter_p/nva3000.htm

would allow day/night shooting.

Although, I would probably just mount a holographic sight with starlight adapter on an integrally suppressed Camp 45 lay for them over bait.

Not sporting at all, but there's nothing sporting about an emergency culling, right? We had something similar happen here, only it was with feral cats in town. All was well and good until an officer tried to shoot a cat through a bank window. The culling operation was terminated at that point.

Can you not get hunting licenses? Some states in the US have urban deer tags which allow us to use bows. Do you have anything similar there?

May I ask what signs you're seeing that the herd needs culled?

Josh

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Rapier
Advanced Member



USA
615 Posts

Posted - Jun 25 2012 :  08:29:37  Show Profile Send Rapier a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Peter,
First off, welcome to the Chat site.

I am somewhat familiar with Australia's version of gun and hunting laws as I followed the situation as it developed after the killings by the madman. I also have a friend that was the President of the Sport Shooting Association (similar to our NRA)You folks have a severe problem in that you have anti gun and anti hunting laws that are on the books, "because." With little regard to any real solution to any problem except to remove the guns from possession of the public.

First off you would need to get the gun built after being permitted for and with the suppressor. My suggestion is that you start with a black powder gun, the Martini Cadet, as the rules for BP guns in Australia may still be very different from smokeless guns. Then convert the Cadet to a 357 magnum for use with heavy bullets (200gr) at sub sonic velocity. This would be a very easy conversion to a rimmed MOA cartridge. The Martini barrel is easy to change out. The scope is mounted on the barrel using Rem 541 bases, when you extend the non tapered portion of the barrel out from the action about 9-10 inches. You also use the non tapered portion to mount the new forearm. I bought quite a few Cadets from Australia over the years.

Sight system should be a night vision sight, which might also prove to be a problem as the US does not allow most NV scopes made here to be exported but you could possibly buy a Russian or Japanese version.

We here in FL have the exact same problem, a F&G Dept that thinks the answer to over population is to reduce the 7 day Doe season to four days. But our hog and coyote problem has a good fix, a gun and light permit where-in you can hunt them at night with NV scopes and a suppressor. You go on line get a permit, print it out. Then before you go out, you call a toll free number and tell the F&G Dept where you will be by map coordinates and they log you in just in case they get a poaching call.
Ed

Life is simpler when you plow around the stump.

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"
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Galen
Average Member

144 Posts

Posted - Jun 25 2012 :  12:10:04  Show Profile Send Galen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know nothing about your gun laws so I might be barking up the wrong tree.
There are air powered rifles that are suitable for deer sized game and might be looked upon with less scrutiny. Cross bows are another alternative with tipped arrows an over dose of tranquilizer and things end quickily.
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Rapier
Advanced Member



USA
615 Posts

Posted - Jun 25 2012 :  12:14:27  Show Profile Send Rapier a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I forgot to mention the Predation Permit, process, it is a permit issued to land owners here where farming is taking place and the deer are destroying crops. The requirements for acreage is of no matter to you, you create your own in your presentation. The idea is that two shooters named shooters are allowed to use one permit. They may kill up to the allowed number of deer on the permit, per period of time, in our case it is one year. Now here is the part that you might use to advantage, the shooters can not keep the deer. The deer must be given to a list of state approved food bank kitchens for processing, preparation and distribution to the needy. The deer are tagged and can only be transported directly to the facility, checked in and accounted for. The deer are used to feed the poor.

I have two friends with a 90 deer permit per year and their only problem after several years is finding an approved facility still willing to take the deer, before they shoot them. If you include disposal before a game warden in case no facility will take then, it would give you an out.
Ed

Life is simpler when you plow around the stump.

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"
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budlight
Advanced Member



USA
941 Posts

Posted - Jun 25 2012 :  13:38:10  Show Profile Send budlight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
here in America the southern states have feral and wild pig problems. Pigs are nocturnal. So the laser illuminators are the best thing for night hunting.

They have smaller less expensive units also.

There is a company In Texas that sell full barrel length silencers. They are on a remington 700 .308 caliber. Both sub sonic and super sonic rounds can be used. The are about $2200 USD. the tactical 308's are an excellent choice.

Bolt actions are much quieter than semi autos. Silenced gun permits are only a $200 lifetime fee

http://www.lasergenetics.com/nd3x50-laser-designator_hunting.aspx

Edited by - budlight on Jun 26 2012 09:11:08
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peterlonz
Starting Member

Australia
4 Posts

Posted - Jun 26 2012 :  03:31:30  Show Profile Send peterlonz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK guys thanks for the various responses.
First lets be quite clear I am not attempting anything illegal, fines are too high, probability of leaks too high, & my motivation to accept risk too low.
I have read fairly widely of work done in several states of the US so most of what is US relevant in your responses I knew about.
Hunting or discharging any firearm on the properties affected is normally forbidden.
Exceptions apply to approved local authority "rangers", & to long & cross bow hunters, all of whom need the property owners permission.
To date the local authority "animal control officers" who have attempted catching in traps have failed miserably. It was a stupid idea & definitely not a humane solution. Further it is very costly & the catch rate is close to zero (deer are quick & smart & very good jumpers).
Bow hunting clubs have expressed enthusiasm but so far not one hunter has shown up for action. Personally I doubt the possibility of a near 100% humane kill using such methods anyway.
I don't think anyone authorised to cull with a firearm is seriously going to want to mess with a black powder firearm, there is just no need. If the "culling argument" can be won the only next logical steps are to ensure the best methods are employed.
I have read of the heavy bullet, low velocity RN round by Impala fired from a silenced rifle at subsonic speed. Problem is its specialist & expensive ammo & the rifle is not a standard modest cost firearm.
Some of your replies are of similar solutions - looks as though the local people will be ill equiped for this unless they plan well ahead & think through - something you don't normally see in such people - or am I too old to have any faith left?
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Dom
Moderator



Germany
2025 Posts

Posted - Jun 26 2012 :  13:32:40  Show Profile Send Dom a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dunno, I have two thoughts, not sure which would be more effective . . . or legal.

1. At night with a red light, good out to 100 meters, but head shots. Hornet is noticeably quieter than a high power but may still be heard. Firearm would be a well shooting single shot Hornet with decent glass. This can be a touchy subject, I'm not normally a head shot shooter but it is very effective . . . if you don't blow the jaws off.

2. Also at night, with or without a light depending on light sources, and a 223 or 243 with a can. Could take the shots thru the lungs, more room for error, but they run a bit. Firearm could be any accurate bolt with good glass and an Illuminated Dot. Bullets would have to be for game, partitions would work.

I would think if you set up, remain quiet, and remain in the seat, you have very good chance of multiple kills in an evening, especially if you can use a can.

Are we talking about Fallow, Sika, or Sambar? Mostly does and yearlings? I would think if one is responsible and can be trusted to take the sure shot vs. any shot, and after a few times out brings home the bacon, the locals will warm to the culling. Welcome to the 'Nest, Waidmannsheil, Dom.
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JohnC
Junior Member



South Africa
42 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2012 :  00:15:56  Show Profile Send JohnC a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi guys.

Very interesting reading all the comments.

I am a big 300Whisper fan and believe that its the right caliber for the job, however if you are limited in caliber choice really consider heavy for caliber bullets. Like a 180 or 200gr in the 308Win or a 215gr in the 303Brit, they go at around 2000 to 2100fps and hit like a sledge hammer! So you can shoot head or boiler room shots and flatten deer quickly. Due to the short distance (-100m) you don't need a flat trajectory and due to the slow speed you don't have to use strong,very expensive premium bullets. I know that the speed is still a bit high to silence completely but the shot will not echo down the valley to seriously if you employ a silencer. I believe this combination will be more suitable for less experienced cullers that might suffer from "buck fever" and risk shots with small calibers at head shots and blow of jaws as mentioned.

The food scheme mentioned by Rapier is a winner. Its a great benefit for the community or whoever the meat goes to.

Keep strong and enjoy the planning.

JCF
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peterlonz
Starting Member

Australia
4 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2012 :  03:05:21  Show Profile Send peterlonz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks to all who have responded with suggestions.
Although I have a firearms license I am definitely in the novice category.
In this situation I believe it is crucial that:
1) There is available an experienced & discipled marksman.
2) He/she has access to the appropriate "tools" to do the job effectively (see balance of this post).
3) Each hit must be "hit-drop-dead on arrival at ground" thus we ensure the culling action can be supported. Can't afford scenarios such as: "but they run a bit", or to have dead animals found by others with missing jaws.
4) The culling operation must be quiet so that we don't have to worry about nervous neighbours & the marksman can get 3 plus kills when fire is opened.

I have not yet been able to establish what deer species are involved.
I understand that only antlerless deer would be targeted (no point in shooting stags - their carcass would likely yield only pet grade meat).
I am unsure exactly how or who would be able to say the resulting meat was fit for human consumption, as I read in the UK of bovine TB issues. Don't know if there are deer health issues here in Oz but I think not.
Still have to establish if night culling, night scopes, & silencers are allowed in operations such as this but I can't (yet) see why not.
My initial conclusion from what has been presented is that ideally a subsonic bullet with muzzle velocity about 1000-1200FPS & energy of about 800 Joules is possible with a bullet of 200 to 225 gn.
It looks to me as though the Impala RN 250gn 0.357 (refer http://www.impalabullets.at/data/IWA/357Esubs.pdf) would do nicely although it may be over the top somewhat.
Alternatively the 300 Whisper which is really quiet & capable of effective killing in sibsonic form (subject to your advice otherwise).
BTW there is a good demo of this round fired from a semi-auto here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKHiLIHeqsg
I like the idea of a semi-auto - this is a culling exercise not "give them a fair chance" hunting..............
What the set up cost might be I have no idea but you can probably indicate a likely cost & maybe very similar alternatives.
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JohnC
Junior Member



South Africa
42 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2012 :  03:56:32  Show Profile Send JohnC a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi peter.

In terms of the silencer part... you must remember that you have 2 "sonic booms" when you fire a gun, they happen so close together it sounds like 1 big bang.
1. The propellant gas escaping from the barrel as the bullet exits and
2. The bullet breaking the the sound barrier.

If you have a bullet travelling higher that 1140fps and still use a silencer the gas "boom" is eliminated and the bullet "boom" is heard directly above the head of the intended target and eliminated the chance of establishing the direction of where the shot is coming from which causes confusion and allows a experienced shooter to take a quick second and third kill. But Dead quite is best.

The semi auto rifle for culling are a good thing, if you have the opportunity to take multiple targets, safely and accurately, you would like to have the tools to do it.

I thing I am afraid of with the Impala (monolithic solid) is that it lacks the knock down power of a conventional soft nose bullet that mushrooms, this created a bigger temporary wound cavity, bigger permanent wound cavity and better energy transfer from the bullet to the target which creates the collapse. The conventional bullet will be cheaper, and it will give a quicker kill, it will not disintegrate as you are shooting low velocities. The meat damage will also be minimal due to the low speed as well.

Just some points to think about


JCF
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Dom
Moderator



Germany
2025 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2012 :  06:30:20  Show Profile Send Dom a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 300 Whisper subsonic with supressor would be really tough to beat.

I don't think you can guarantee an instant drop on 100% shots taken though. I'd be interested to see what % from 100 deer shot how many dropped on the spot. I'd guess 80%+ with shoulder shots.

Peter, you're going to have to post us those stats one of these days
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peterlonz
Starting Member

Australia
4 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2012 :  10:12:45  Show Profile Send peterlonz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dom,
You are joking right?
I have of course no way to source such data even if it was available somewhere.
The heavy subsonic solid bullet is a newish development as I understand things & drop dead is more likely with such "tools".
If the marksman is disciplined & avoids "marginal" shots I can't see why 90% at least could not be achieved especially since that would be a stated objective. Hunting practices & kill data would be quite different so that is not likely to be a predictor of drop dead %'s.

To JohnC,
Thanks also.
The website addresses I gave in my last post would tend to disagree with your comments - are you saying that info is unreliable?
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JohnC
Junior Member



South Africa
42 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2012 :  23:27:50  Show Profile Send JohnC a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dear Peter.

I wouldn't say that the info on the impala bullets are unreliable.

I have experienced other situations as well...

The Impala have a very nice "cutting shoulder" right where the point of the bullet joins the "bullet shaft". this is like a paper punch, cutting a neat diameter sized hole. If it happens that you get a 300 Whisper rifle the bullet diameter is 7.62mm. If you use impala that's the size hole you get.

With a conventional soft nose, people are afraid of using them due to "bullet failure", these bullets will fail at top speeds from magnum calibers exceeding 2500fps up. In a slow caliber like the 300Whisper (1040fps max) these conventional soft noses are strong enough to ensure controlled expansion (mushroom-ing) and you end up with a wound cavity of double the caliber size 14 - 15mm. Conventional's will save costs as well.

The impalas are strong, solid bullets (monolithic)and is great for the speedsters shooting a 300 Win Mag or anything from 2700fps and up.

I am not saying anybody is wrong or inaccurate. Just adding my 5cents.
kind regards

JCF
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