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Coyote50
Junior Member
USA
60 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 02 2009 : 10:35:09
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| The previous thread about price gouging kind of got me thinking and i didn't want to jack the other thread. I have been to a lot of different "Major outfitters" cabelas, scheels, gander mountian, etc etc.....I have noticed a running theme in many of them. The gun floor people most of the time have very little knowledge of guns! It drives me nuts, they gouge on some prices because they think they have something valuable when they dont, there are many more examples but if its up to me ill do my business with a gunsmith with knowledge. |
Walk softly and carry a big gun....then make lots of noise! |
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Kansas Ed
Advanced Member
USA
701 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2009 : 11:41:16
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Gunbroker ain't no different!
A lot of dealers around here went by the wayside because they didn't want a reasonable profit. Either that or they were so obnoxious that no one could stand to walk in their hallowed shop. Too bad.
Gander, Cabela's etc are in business because local shops failed to supply the public properly. But from what I'm hearing their day is also coming.
Small gunshops can cry all they want about getting put out of business by the big box stores, but if they were fair and personable they would stay in business.
For example. We have a pawnshop in Wichita that will order any gun you want for 10% over dealer cost...and won't take more than $100. So if your gun cost them $1400 you pay $100 more. If it cost them $500 you pay $550 total. Fair and upfront. They stay in business while others fail around them. Do they advertise...nope...gotta search them out or catch it word of mouth.
I wish I could open a reloading supply center locally, but costs too much to start.
Ed |
Are we there yet??? |
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edward5759
Average Member
133 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2009 : 11:54:54
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I've seen the same thing. I was in Cabalas and heard the salesman say that primers only stay good for about three months. and sold a young man a 340 weatherby mag. for his first rifle, he was with his mother and I est. his age at 16, I did here it was his first rifle. He wanted it for deer and general shooting. One guy was wanting 45-70 bullets for reloading so the sales man gave him .45 auto, "a .452 bullet not a .458 The sales man called me out on it saying "How would I know". I took him to the books and showed him. Then he said he was not a reloader, he said "He didn't want to know and walked away".
I don't get it.
I am 63 and when I worked in a gun shop when I was 16. The owner, instructed me to learn all I could. I became a pretty good Smith; it paid my way through engineering school.
Ed
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45colt
Average Member
125 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2009 : 12:11:09
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| I'm fortunate to have more than a few shops within an hours drive of my house. They don't all deal with the same merchandise, and you can usually get good advice and fair advise about guns and equipment. I never trust advise from any chain store when it comes to guns and related equipment. Their prices are not very good either. |
"Sir you just shot an unarmed man."
"Well he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend" |
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jb3179
Junior Member
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2009 : 19:50:33
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| The same thing happens here. Bass pro is easily 10% higher than a few well stocked local shops and the sales men know less than nothing. In reference to Ed, All but a couple local shops dont even like you touching their merchandise. Its like their own personal collection and they would rather you sleep with their wives than touch their toys. If i had the money to start up I could put them all out of business on personality alone. I touched a pre 64 model 70 featherweight in a shop in town and got screamed at like i was a child. He also wanted 2500 dollars for it which is why it is on the shelf still today. I'll never buy anything from that guy. Actually he's lucky I'm a little older and wiser now a few years ago he'd have gotten a few square nuts from my wrist rocket. |
"It's a helluva thing killing a man. You take away all he's got and all he ever will have." |
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fishstan2
Advanced Member
USA
1601 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2009 : 01:50:44
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Well everybody, don't forget Walmart and the rest of the stores that sell firearms. Man, they have some real winners in their stores too!!!!!!. It is vey sad we have come to this. Ditto to all that has been said. I think it is a bad time to try to get into to guns, because of what is going on. JMHO. Stan |
WILLIAMS, STANLEY W.
SGM U.S. ARMY
CAMP TAJI IRAQ
"SHOOT EM FROM LONG" RANGE" |
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RaySendero
Average Member
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2009 : 07:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by fishstan2
Well everybody, don't forget Walmart and the rest of the stores that sell firearms. Man, they have some real winners in their stores too!!!!!!. It is vey sad we have come to this. Ditto to all that has been said. I think it is a bad time to try to get into to guns, because of what is going on. JMHO. Stan
Oh boy - I remember Walmart!
Wanted some 28 ga field loads for an up coming dove hunt. Asked the sales person if they had any behind counter or in back?
He said, "No - 28 gauge was illegal" |
Ray |
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Wolfgang
Advanced Member
1553 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2009 : 10:20:04
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jb3179 makes some very valid points, finding a good local mom & pop gunshop is very difficult anymore. For the last few months I've been trying to buy a Savage bolt action fitted for .223 since I happen to fall into a great deal on high-quality a barrel blank that will fit that action. Being in the business, I know what the dealer prices are and I also know what the operating costs of a store are so I don't take any issue with the dealer needing to make a profit but damned if I'll let them jam it up my ass! Of all the local shops I stopped at, the cheapest one wanted $170 over dealer price plus a $40 transfer fee - we're talking a bare unbarreled action and a $210 mark-up is beyond just a little EXCESSIVE! What's it going to take, five minutes on the phone, ten minutes for the transfer & payment proceedings for a total of 15 minutes. For what the action alone would cost me from a local gun dealer, I can order the whole gun from my local wally world and saving $96 on the initial purchase then have the OEM barrel, stock & trigger guard to re-sell lowering my costs even further.
As for the "touching" thing, I stopped at a shop looking for an early model NEF/H&R handi-gun in .357, the ones with the over-sized bores that won't shoot a jacketed bullet of no kind. While trolling the used rack from 8 feet away (it was that far behind the counter) I happened to see what appeared to be an interesting flintlock so I waited about ten minutes for the fellow to get done BSing with another customer before asking to see it. No kidding, he took it off the rack and held it a good two feet behind the 2' wide counter showing it to me like he was holding it for a camera. Instinctively I reached out for it as when anyone hands you a rifle to look at and he said, "I don't think so! This here is an original and museum quality piece at that and if you don't have five grand cash to put on the counter, you ain't touching it!" I didn't say anything right away, I just asked if he could turn it around so I could see the top of the barrel. As I suspected when I got the first closer look, it was not an original but rather a poor quality reproduction built by an a-hole from Minnesota (a wannabe gun builder who is an active anti-gun activist). There were a few customers in the shop and the guy's snappy comment to me got their attention. I, having worked around loud machinery all my life, don't talk quietly and I didn't when I said, "Well Bubba, let me give you the skinny on what you got there. First off, it's not an original as you claim, it's a bottom of the barrel sorry excuse for a reproduction that was built in Minnesota. It's also not worth no five-thousand dollars. The lock and barrel are junk and not even fitting for a wall-hanger. The stock looks like it was hacked out with a dull hatchet. The patch box is bent and utterly worthless and the buttplate is buggered up beyond use. The only thing worth salvaging from this corrupted piece of crap are the thimbles and trigger guard for which the best offer you'll ever get from me would be $25 and after considering your attitude, that's now been reduced to zero! Have a nice day." He stood there with his lower jaw hanging way down and as I turned to head for the door, he said, "Who the hell are you to come in my shop talking that sh%t? I'm a professional and have been in this business for seven years!" I turned back around and said, "You may be in the business for seven years but you're no professional and besides, I can talk all the crap I want because I've been building traditional muzzleloaders for about twenty years longer than you've been in the business of selling BS."
This stuff never ceases to amaze me either because I actually did find two of the early model .357 rifles I was looking for. First one was at a flea market and the fellow wanted "$350 FIRM!" and it looked like it rode in the back of someone's pick-up for ten years. Second one was at a pawn shop, "he" wanted $299, "she" (I assumed his wife) said, "It's been here forever, take whatever he'll offer and get rid of it." He was fixated on his $299 price so I said, "Thank you. I appreciate your time." |
 Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."
Harry S. Truman
mark@fire-iron.biz
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aj3156
Average Member
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2009 : 11:22:24
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| I had a guy at Wal-mart tell me you could shoot .300 WSM in a .300 Win. mag. |
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twud
Advanced Member
USA
1385 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2009 : 18:27:20
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I've had great luck with our local Bass Pro stores. The gun department is well staffed, courteous and helpful. They have a wide selection of firearms from handguns to shotguns. If they don't have what you want their happy to order it for you and ship it to your home address, no shipping charge. They will sharpen your knives for free and if your lucky this young will be there who does a world class job.
Their prices on firearms are no different than a local shop. I really like watching the fish in the aquarium (call me silly).
It's been a while since I bought a gun from them, but I'm pretty sure they don't charge a transfer fee.
I live halfway between 2 stores so it's an hour's drive either way or I'd probably visit more often.
As for local shops, there are a few around with very limited stocks
of even the basics. If I were still shooting trap I wouldn't know where to go for components. |
NRA Life Member
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AvyDriver
Average Member
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2009 : 19:20:27
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I guess I am fortunate. I have a nice mom and pop shop about 5 minutes from my house and the only two people that work there are husband and wife. Their prices vary between high and low depending on what it is. For instance I have learned Midway is cheaper to mail order reloading equipment but their guns and rifle prices are pretty competitive and he will budge a little for us LEOs.
The other shop is actually the gun smith I go to, he has a limited stock but he will order whatever. I swear the guy is older then my grandfather but he does very good work. He is a grumpy ole guy on occasion and real talkative others, either way he is interesting so I dont mind and he likes to share stories. The oddest thing with him is that he never remembers me from one visit to the other, even when hes working on one of my guns. A couple of his other customers say the same thing, he always treats them like new customers. Prices are good though and his work is excellent but he sure is stubborn. Definately never rude, just quirky. |
Brett
New Reloader
243 Win Howa 1500 heavy bbl on B&C stock & Nikon Monarch 3 12x42
Dolce Bellum Inexpertis |
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Wolfgang
Advanced Member
1553 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2009 : 20:16:16
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Speaking as a micro-business owner, I have to defend local shops not having huge inventories because it takes a lot of money to be able to stack it on a shelf hoping someone will come along and buy it. Money that sits isn't working in the best interest of the business. Think about it in terms of your own personal position ... how many of you are willing to buy a .460 Wtby mag and all the reloading dies and components just in case you may happen to go hunting in Africa at some point in your life? How many of you have a complete set of replacement parts for your vehicles including engines and transmissions just in case you may need them ten years later? With some rare exceptions, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of you answered "no" because it doesn't make sense to do such things.
The same logic applies to businesses. You need to stock as little as possible because free capital is working capital and working capital is what the business needs to be efficient. So here's the deal, just take a look at all the powders, primers, wads and bullets there are to choose from in all the different calibers/gauges. If a micro-business tried to stock just one box of each bullet in every caliber and in every style/weight for ever caliber, you can see how quickly the money adds up. Running a retail business is like trying to win the lottery. You have to invest part of your capital into stock and when you buy that stock you have to choose those items which you think will sell quickly so that money isn't left sitting on a shelf. If you buy the wrong stuff, you loose your free capital and can't get it back until someone finally comes along to buy what you have.
I went to Cabela's in Hamburg PA three times and the only thing I ever bought there was a smoked ostrich sandwich and a bowl of their fresh mushroom soup. Everything they had was priced the same or higher than the good local shops and Cabela's doesn't give you any discount if you buy in bulk. For example, I wanted to stock-up on reloading stuff and I took my rather lengthy list to Cabela's, handed it to the manager and asked if I would get a discount off the full retail price if I bought everything there at one time ... "NO!" The prices are fixed by corporate and they are what they are. I emailed my list to the local guy, later that day he sent me a total cost that came in over $300 cheaper than Cabela's and about $200 cheaper than Graf's. Thing is, I didn't wait any longer to get the stuff from the local guy than I would have if I had to wait on shipping from the big stores. Bonus was that he delivered the order right to my door saving me the 50 mile round-trip drive to his shop. |
Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."
Harry S. Truman
mark@fire-iron.biz
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xarcher
New Member
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2009 : 20:35:52
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| I was in Gander Mountain today and although i don't always go to the gun counter to buy something, I always go to see who is behind the counter. I can honestly say that out of the last 5 times I have been in the store, only 1 guy has been there twice. All others have been there only once. Tough to train a counter guy if they don't stick around long. |
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fishstan2
Advanced Member
USA
1601 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2009 : 01:49:33
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As you all have stated, it's "Hit or Miss", I have even been in Walmart where there were people who knew guns . But it sure don't happen everyday. And the stores where you expect the people to be compedent, it's "Hit or Miss" there to. Good post as this does make you think. Stan |
WILLIAMS, STANLEY W.
SGM U.S. ARMY
CAMP TAJI IRAQ
"SHOOT EM FROM LONG" RANGE" |
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twud
Advanced Member
USA
1385 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2009 : 02:06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang
Speaking as a micro-business owner, I have to defend local shops not having huge inventories because it takes a lot of money to be able to stack it on a shelf hoping someone will come along and buy it. Money that sits isn't working in the best interest of the business. Think about it in terms of your own personal position ... how many of you are willing to buy a .460 Wtby mag and all the reloading dies and components just in case you may happen to go hunting in Africa at some point in your life? How many of you have a complete set of replacement parts for your vehicles including engines and transmissions just in case you may need them ten years later? With some rare exceptions, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of you answered "no" because it doesn't make sense to do such things.
The same logic applies to businesses. You need to stock as little as possible because free capital is working capital and working capital is what the business needs to be efficient. So here's the deal, just take a look at all the powders, primers, wads and bullets there are to choose from in all the different calibers/gauges. If a micro-business tried to stock just one box of each bullet in every caliber and in every style/weight for ever caliber, you can see how quickly the money adds up. Running a retail business is like trying to win the lottery. You have to invest part of your capital into stock and when you buy that stock you have to choose those items which you think will sell quickly so that money isn't left sitting on a shelf. If you buy the wrong stuff, you loose your free capital and can't get it back until someone finally comes along to buy what you have.
I went to Cabela's in Hamburg PA three times and the only thing I ever bought there was a smoked ostrich sandwich and a bowl of their fresh mushroom soup. Everything they had was priced the same or higher than the good local shops and Cabela's doesn't give you any discount if you buy in bulk. For example, I wanted to stock-up on reloading stuff and I took my rather lengthy list to Cabela's, handed it to the manager and asked if I would get a discount off the full retail price if I bought everything there at one time ... "NO!" The prices are fixed by corporate and they are what they are. I emailed my list to the local guy, later that day he sent me a total cost that came in over $300 cheaper than Cabela's and about $200 cheaper than Graf's. Thing is, I didn't wait any longer to get the stuff from the local guy than I would have if I had to wait on shipping from the big stores. Bonus was that he delivered the order right to my door saving me the 50 mile round-trip drive to his shop.
Wolfgang,
I have to agree with you on the stocking issue, but you can't sell what you aint got. In the areas I travel the only thing the small guy has to offer is ordering new guns and buying and selling used ones. There is a shop about 90 miles away that really has it all. At any one time they must have 300 or 400 new and used guns on the rack and they're a stocking Weatherby dealer. They must have 30 feet of shelf space devoted to bullets. I've never been in there that there weren't at least 6 or seven customers checking things out. I never seem to leave there without picking up something. We only go through Hancock, Md on our way to a local resort area so I don't get in there often.
I would imagine that Cabela's or Bass Pro don't pay much in the way of carrying costs, as they must have outfits like Sierra drop ship mail order items. They never touch the stuff.
MP
I hate to see it happen, but the days of the small guy are measured.
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steve4102
Advanced Member
USA
811 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2009 : 07:40:05
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As for the "touching" thing, Gander Mnt has all of their long guns sitting in racks for the whole world to play with. They are handled and fondled by everyone from the very careful and experienced to the clumsy klutzes of the world. The rack has no padding were the butstock rests. Every firearm in the store is damaged beyond belief just ahead of the recoil pad from idiots bagging the stock on the wooded rack. Not only that most of the shotguns on the top rack are missing the front sight from idiots smashing the barrel into the upper part of their wood rack.
I tried to purchase a Benelli shotgun for my son at my local GM. They were all beat up pretty bad. I asked him if he could order one for me, he said sure, but it will most likely come from another store and odds were pretty good that it would come as damaged if not worse. I asked, if all your guns are beat to ****, why not install some padding on the gun rack. He said that management didn't think it was necessary and worth the expense.
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Gun floor sales people
