Reloader's Nest Forum
Reloader's Nest Forum
Home | Profile | Active Topics | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
 All Forums
 Reloading General
 General forum
 Need advice....not sure where to start

Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.

Screensize:
UserName:
Password:
Format Mode:
Format: BoldItalicizedUnderlineStrikethrough Align LeftCenteredAlign Right Horizontal Rule Insert HyperlinkInsert EmailInsert Image Insert CodeInsert QuoteInsert List
   
Message:

* HTML is OFF
* Forum Code is ON
Smilies
Smile [:)] Big Smile [:D] Cool [8D] Blush [:I]
Tongue [:P] Evil [):] Wink [;)] Clown [:o)]
Black Eye [B)] Eight Ball [8] Frown [:(] Shy [8)]
Shocked [:0] Angry [:(!] Dead [xx(] Sleepy [|)]
Kisses [:X] Approve [^] Disapprove [V] Question [?]

 
   

T O P I C    R E V I E W
TX_Medic Posted - Aug 06 2017 : 11:41:20
So, a little background. Last year i bought a Remington 700 ADL in 7mag. I didnt shoot it till several months later and found that after firing a cartridge the brass was sticking in the chamber. Long story short, there was a burr from the factory and I ended up having a local smith re-ream the chamber for me.

I have now started reloading for the gun, which is where i found another issue. I use a giraud power trimmer. Initially I neck sized my brass and found that the cases were sticking inside the giraud case holder. First thought was maybe I just needed to FL size. Did that, however, my FL sized brass is still coming out 0.004 wider in the body than factory unfired brass, and its still sticking in the case holder. I contacted giraud and was informed that the 0.004 expansion is more than what is typical.

This is where Im lost and don't know where to start. I emailed Redding thinking it was possibly a faulty die, but they are out of shop till the 14th.

If it matters, I am using Norma brass for load workup, however, i still have the issue with factory brass i've fired as well.

My questions:
1) is the 0.004 expansion in the body excessive to what should be expected? And if so, could it be related to an oversized chamber?
2) Even with the possible over-expansion, shouldn't my FL die size it down to SAMMI specs?

Sorry for the long post. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
15   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Paul B Posted - Aug 07 2017 : 16:13:25
quote:
Originally posted by Hockeynick39

quote:
Originally posted by WonderMan4

Interesting thread.

TX Medic: forget all this BS about "pressure rings". It is a mythical spot on a cartridge case that can never be measured exactly in the same place twice by hand on a tapered case. You will never find any reference to it on an official SAAMI technical drawing. It is an invention of the internet.

It normally does not matter what your chamber measures, just customize your brass to fit the chamber by neck sizing and using a Redding body die, or follow the link that woods provided.



Interesting: "Pressure Rings are an invention of the internet."

I guess then, that Ken Waters was a ghost because he was talking about that looooooooooooong before the internet was even a glimmer in anyone's eye.

Sorry about detracting from the thread. Anyway, here are a few articles on this subject:

http://shootersnotes.com/articles/when-are-pressures-too-high/

https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2015/08/12/reloading-101-case-diagnostics/



Yeah, ya beat me to it. I double checked it in my copy of Pet Loads and the illustrations go a long way on showing how it should be done.
I also checked on the decimal figures and Gary was right for the most part. I say it that way because I speed read it and may have missed a point or two though I doubt it.
Frankly my strongest suspicion was that shell holder.
My trim method is just a plain old RCBS hand trimmer with the handle removed, clamped in a vice and a half inch drill on the trimmer shaft. Just finished off about 400+ .270 Win. cases about a month ago. Still have to ream the primer pockets and uniform the flash holes to finish the job but no big hurry. Just waiting for the cooler weather to come back. Working in my shed with the A/C on adds an easy $200 plus to the already high bill to A/C a big house. Anyway that has worked the best for me. I did have a Lyman power trimmer but went it tanked, Lyman literally told me to go to hell. I'm off them like a dirty shirt.
Just one more comment. Looking at the pictures at the Giroaud site, it looks as if it removes way too much metal on the inside of the case on the chamfering. THat's way more that I ever take off.
Paul B.
Zero333 Posted - Aug 07 2017 : 11:59:21
Trim only when you're within 0.010" of the chambers end...

Here is a link on how to make your own gauge to measure the chamber neck length...

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/11/measure-your-chamber-length-with-home-made-modified-case/

SAAMI chamber's neck length is going to be 0.020" to 0.030" longer than the MAX case length.

As an example... One of my 308win chambers measure 2.035" while the MAX saami 308win case length call for 2.015"... so I let it grow to 2.025" before I trim.

Other chambers I reload for are usually 0.030"-0.035" longer than saami max case length. Like one of my 243win's chamber measure 2.075" and saami max case length calls for 2.045"... I let that one grow to 2.065" (0.020" longer than saami max). It saves me TONS of trimming/chamfering/deburring.

Shastaboat Posted - Aug 07 2017 : 10:07:45
There are lots of power trim methods available. The cheapest may be the best. I use a power trim arbor for a Forester trimmer/neck turner and a simple battery powered drill to turn it. As with most adjustable trimmers they can be a pain to adjust. One of the easiest trimmers to use and cheapest to buy is the Lee Case Trimmer that uses a different arbor for each caliber and the head chucks up in a hand drill or drill press. You can get this setup for less than $25.00. I can't imagine that you would be trimming that many 7MM Rem Mag cases.
TX_Medic Posted - Aug 07 2017 : 09:38:16
I did play with the FL die a fair amount, from a half turn out from touching, to a half turn over touching to overcam it.

I've realized i was way overcomplicating this, and if i would have just started with measuring my cases against SAAMI specs i would have realized the issue lies with the shell holder to begin with. All the measurements i took that were applicable were within SAAMI specs, for both my fireformed, and FL sized brass. Looks like i am probably going to end up selling the Giraud and concede to trimming by hand.
Zero333 Posted - Aug 07 2017 : 08:14:44
Tx Medic...

When you set up the FL sizing die did you have it set to over cam ?

Maybe you might of though you were using the FL sizing die while you accidentally screwed down the NS die or you didn't set up the FL die correctly or something with the shell holder.

I've heard of folks having to shave of some of the top of the shell holder so the die can travel farther down and size the case properly.

Hockeynick39 Posted - Aug 07 2017 : 07:57:05
quote:
Originally posted by WonderMan4

Interesting thread.

TX Medic: forget all this BS about "pressure rings". It is a mythical spot on a cartridge case that can never be measured exactly in the same place twice by hand on a tapered case. You will never find any reference to it on an official SAAMI technical drawing. It is an invention of the internet.

It normally does not matter what your chamber measures, just customize your brass to fit the chamber by neck sizing and using a Redding body die, or follow the link that woods provided.



Interesting: "Pressure Rings are an invention of the internet."

I guess then, that Ken Waters was a ghost because he was talking about that looooooooooooong before the internet was even a glimmer in anyone's eye.

Sorry about detracting from the thread. Anyway, here are a few articles on this subject:

http://shootersnotes.com/articles/when-are-pressures-too-high/

https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2015/08/12/reloading-101-case-diagnostics/
WonderMan4 Posted - Aug 06 2017 : 23:20:36
Interesting thread.

TX Medic: forget all this BS about "pressure rings". It is a mythical spot on a cartridge case that can never be measured exactly in the same place twice by hand on a tapered case. You will never find any reference to it on an official SAAMI technical drawing. It is an invention of the internet.

It normally does not matter what your chamber measures, just customize your brass to fit the chamber by neck sizing and using a Redding body die, or follow the link that woods provided.
Onondaga Posted - Aug 06 2017 : 23:12:59
quote:
Originally posted by mtmuley

I've never heard of a "pressure ring". Any info to back up the existence of a "pressure ring"? mtmuley



Google search, there is plenty on this OLD method from the 1960s, However only a few sources identify the the correct area to measure accurately. Actually, Guns and Ammo magazine covered this best with their regular writers and the discussions lasted a decade. Measure at the end of the case head run-out where the body wall thickness begins. This varies by caliber and brass maker. There is no fixed distance for all cartridges, you have to locate it for your batch of like brass.
ethmoid1999 Posted - Aug 06 2017 : 22:43:45
Do not ignore what Onondaga says. He may be right. Like Shasta and Woods, I suspect the Giraud stuff is not clicking. You may have a chamber problem but the chamber cast can verify that. I wish someone was close to help you. I am in the oil field. If you do what Onondaga says, you'll know for sure.
TX_Medic Posted - Aug 06 2017 : 21:36:26
Shasta and Woods, I agree with you. Just did quite a bit of measuring off of SAAMI specs and they are all within their tolerances for both my fire formed, and FL sized brass. The factory brass i have is undersized when measured against SAAMI specs, which accounts for the difference I was seeing. This leaves the issue to the Giraud "shell holder," and not my chamber or die. Thanks for the help all!
Shastaboat Posted - Aug 06 2017 : 21:22:22
quote:
Originally posted by TX_Medic

Measurements above the belt are as follows-

Unfired, factory Remington-0.506
Fireformed 1x Norma, not sized in any way-0.514/5...varies case to case
Full length sized-0.512/3...again, varies case to case



I think your chamber is fine. Again the problem is with the case trimming equipment. Your brass is expanding .002-.003 to fit your chamber after being resized. Factory brass is way undersized in this case. The sized brass is under SAAMI specs.

woods Posted - Aug 06 2017 : 21:03:14
I don't see any cause for alarm. The OP has a chamber that is larger than expected and the brass has expanded past where it will fit in his Girard "shell holder". Innovative has a belted case body sizer that may help his situation.

http://larrywillis.com/

Otherwise he will have to find another way to trim. No big deal.

Cases will expand to fit whatever chamber they are fired in. Chambers vary

Onondaga Posted - Aug 06 2017 : 20:39:58
quote:
Originally posted by TX_Medic

Measurements above the belt are as follows-

Unfired, factory Remington-0.506
Fireformed 1x Norma, not sized in any way-0.514/5...varies case to case
Full length sized-0.512/3...again, varies case to case



Measurement above the belt is not specific enough and very UN-useful for measuring pressure ring. Learn the terms "case head web" and case wall thickness at the case body very specifically. The juncture where the web runs out to the case wall is the correct area to identify and measure pressure rings, no where else. You can find that area by cutting a case lengthwise or several try feels with a wire probe into the brass feeling for the run out of the web.

Gary
mtmuley Posted - Aug 06 2017 : 20:28:34
I've never heard of a "pressure ring". Any info to back up the existence of a "pressure ring"? mtmuley
Onondaga Posted - Aug 06 2017 : 20:20:57
quote:
Originally posted by Shastaboat

I doubt that your gunsmith ruined your chamber or barrel. By rechambering, all he did was to take out the original chamber burr and no more. If you full length resized brass fits your chamber I'd say the problem lies with the Giraud products. You also said your expansion measurement at the pressure ring was .004". The SAAMI head diameter of a 7MM Rem Mag is .513". What is your fired case head diameter in front of the case belt measure vs the measured dimension of a fired un-sized case measure?



Lets clarify here for safety. The pressure ring is a very specific area of the case where the case head web thickness runs out into the body case wall thickness. You have to identify that area on your brass for a valid measurement of pressure ring diameter on brass, then next compare that measurement 2 different times, once after firing a known safe load ~5% under max. Then again with your loads as you work them up and test fire.

The life or death warning is if you measure more than .001" larger than the KNOWN safe load at the pressure ring. Not .004", you may not live that long through a .004 increase past safe load at the pressure ring, you will be over 100,000 psi at .004 over safe if your rifle survives. And if your rifle survives a .004" gain at the pressure ring, the rifle is ruined and unsafe.

Gary

Reloader's Nest Forum © 2016 ReloadersNest Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.08 seconds. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.06